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I am surprised that this wasn't happened earlier, regarding what kind of attitude TS have towards everything. They will bury themselves.
CGtrader is finally at the place it deserves to be
Discussion started by iterateCGI
Did a website ranking check today and it was very interesting.
CGtrader has finally thrown Turbosquit of its first place, (https://imgur.com/a/VuizVNL)
(https://imgur.com/a/MDN4XPS)
Don’t know what exactly went on but at Turbosquid there was a clear drop in the traffic for 3 consecutive months (from April til June) while CGtrader traffic from then on went up for 3 consecutive months and surpassing Turbosquid.
The results show more page views, longer visits and smaller bounce rate for CGt.
Also interesting to see its more popular in the US, basically beating Ts on its own ground.
It seems David has finally beaten Goliath,
Answers
8
The results are even more impressive on Alexa:
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/turbosquid.com
https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/cgtrader.com
TS is going down fast for the past 3 months and that is most likely the reason for their risky move with the new agreement, which is very likely to backfire at them if more Artists realize what kind of power they are actually giving to TS over their own models by agreeing to it.
I left Turbosquid over this agreement. They rolled it out while the US is focused on elections and the world distracted by Covid. The majority of artists will ignore it and simply click agree to continue. And then no one realises "free trial use", "bundles" and "syndicates" are now mandatory and can't be opted out from.
But it basically gives TS the right to let whatever client they have try out any model for free. And relies on trust for those industries to report what they actually do with those models. Also, TS can now have other sites sell your models and even bundle your models with other artists. They are actually behaving like a pirate.
Guys, WAKE UP! Leave TS and show the industry where the good models are. Right here, on CGTrader!
Where they can contact us directly ;)
Thanks CGTrader, for going steady in these trying times and allowing us to make healthy decisions that will affect the market in the long run.
You have my respect for leaving TS! If I didn't left already when they started protecting thieves, I would have done the same now.
I am sure many Artists keep letting TS milking them, just because they are afraid to lose TS sales. Many have no idea how much CGT has grown in the past year.
@trimitek We got to spread the word.
@Brykmann I don't think there is need for that. Artists will figure that out themselves pretty soon. TS management are obviously doing a good job at destroying their market so far. I have the feeling that when Artists start to see their models downloaded and used for free (“Trial Basis Use” + “3D Industry Promotion”) and their miserable royalties cut even more with bundle sales with other people, they will start showing TS the fin... I mean.. the fist ; )
No, you were right at first, it's the finger. Two fingers in fact.
5
It's incredible that CGT has surpassed TS, even in the US. I've moved to CGT almost a year ago and sales were immediately higher. Now TS pulls this really low blow and i really hope it backfires on them. I've turned all my models offline on TS except for one: the triple blessed box.
Check it out here, it's awesome: https://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/1635117
I've always done better sales here than TS, even when my portfolios were exactly the same in both markets. Now I release all my new stuff here because it's just so much better for sales and CGT gives special attention to 3d printable models, which is where most of my work is focused. TS never really cared about 3d printing it seems. They still haven't given it a unique category, which is unfortunate.
@Luxxeon There are lots of things about TS that are unfortunate.
Haha :D
The harder they try, the harder they fail.
Certainly looks that way. It's because they're doing it all wrong: sacrificing designers to please customers. They forget who makes all the work.
So, only thieves will stay.
I doubt it, they will most likely leave too. From what I have seen, it looks like thieves hate to be robbed much more than the regular people. )
It depends of what sort of people we'd count as thieves :)
Haha, yeah.. I was talking about models thieves (those who try to sell models that they didn't made themselves)
I believe customers go where the models are. If you have quality models that are on demand, customer will find them either here or there.
You're right, but I mean what portion of they are looking for just a free or the cheapest 3d content. From that is directly depending how much 3d artists make. Quantity of "bad-quality" buyers are never equal several "quality" ones for 3d artists. It is better or at least have no metter, only just to a marketplace.
I think that what is at stake here are two business models.
Ts tries to position itself as the reference site for "expensive" clients, CGT does not renounce any of that for the simple fact of supporting and caring for artists, if TS goes to second place, those "expensive" clients will not hesitate to get on the CGT bandwagon, and this is easy to happen if artists join CGT.
Which is easy to happen if they bother to read the conditions of both sites.
1. There is nothing good to 3d artists in general when "expensive" clients come into a space of cheapie prices. Without a control, any price-regulating, they stop to respect artists and pay adequate prices.
2. TS was the best marketplace for a long time and exactly by the fact that they was the 1st they start to do anything they want.
The fact that GCT, which actually also was a fairly good platform for 3d artists in many aspects, have got the top place, honestly speaking make me worry about the future... the future of 3d artists here.
Not far ago the commission was just 10% here. Now artists are paying 20%.
I really hope they will refrain from any TS-style "experiments".
I am not sure I understand what do you mean by "Which is easy to happen if they bother to read the conditions of both sites".
It may be, but I don't see why it should be bad for artists to have "expensive" clients, in fact, as an artist, I don't see any downside.
It is true that TS has taken advantage of being the first, but you seem to imply that if CGT reaches that point, they will act as they did.
But I think they are different philosophies, although the danger exists, I do not deny it.
Regarding the last sentence, it is obvious, a self-respecting artist cannot accept draconian conditions just to sell a little.
Lots of designers who sell on TS also sell on CGT.
I agree with stereomanik. There are lots of designers on CGT with ridiculously low prices. There should be some kind of regulating mechanism operated by CGT and the designer community, in tandem.
0
I mean that without regulation of prices "expensive" clients will quickly turn into "cheap" ones.
You may ask "Why it will be happing?". Well, TS, as I know it, have an instrument to regulate prices on selling 3d content meanwhile here is no one and so day to day the price damping among 3d artists here will be stronger and stronger.
---------
I think TS within a little span of time as they start to loose money will change ther vision and to their conditions and royalties. I do not think anyone would deal with they again though.
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TS doesn't regulate prices (they were in the past, but that didn't work).
There is only $5 minimum price.
The reasons prices are higher there are mainly that they give the lowest royalties to artists + there is up to 30% withholding tax on top of that for US sales (depending on the country you reside in).
On the other hand, the main reason prices are low on CGT is because from the beginning till ~1 year ago they didn't had almost any control on the model thieves (those just sell everything they can get from free and warez sites and sell it for the minimal price possible).
That massively drove prices down over the years.
Now CGT had made a big cleanup - a lot of thieves were banned and there is more strict control on that. However the damage was done and I'm not sure how much time it will take for the market to heal.
You are right that customers become cheap when they get used to low prices, but price regulations from the market is very hard to implement correctly.
The market should self regulate if there is (relatively) fair competition.
A market doesn't self regulate. It's an artifact, a construct, it's always operated from the outside. Only organisms have the hability to self-regulate, so if we want it to work the way we want to we're the ones who have to pull the leavers and push the buttons.
Now imagine 9999 people pushing buttons on the same keyboard :D
For that to work we have to make Artists Union, have voting system and somehow make every Artist to agree with the decision the Union had made.
You got it ;) We have to establish rules, and agree to those rules. There are always deviances and contradictions, but that's just the nature of the Universe (sorry for being too philosophical, i just woke up :P )
From artist perspective "unnecessary" competition is the main problem here on cgt, whatever you upload here there is minimum 5 thieves who will upload that same thing with half the price (in most cases less). So artist have to adjust to that. I lost count how many customers i have lost because of this , because they find stolen model for lot less. Some of them even acused me that i'm trying to rip them off , i tried to explain that it's imposible to buy legit, 100% accurate laser scanned car model (for example) for 2,5,15$. I achieved nothing by doing this (explaining) so i dont bother anymore, and the "trend" continues. Nowadays there is far better control here on cgt than it used to be, lets hope that it will become even better.
@PhantomDesign Yes, let's hope so. One good news: CGT surpassed TS, so we got that going for us which is nice.
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Sorry, but there is nothing hard to realize it in the case if such task would be in a to do list.
The market unfortunately is unable to do it by themself when there is even one who is OK to work for $1 per hour and sell their models for $2.
If a person do it, that indicates just that this individuum completely do not understand that such prices are bad not just only to themself but to all artists/freelancers. They must be told about it with a thoroughly explanation about why it's so bad.
Clients, on the other hand, in their vast majority do not understand what the difference between one model from another but which is cheaper.
Now the market as well as freelancing is dying. Only when marketplaces and freelance platforms will finally star to understand that when artist/freelancer make more per project/sale they also will make more it may be changed.
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That is absolutely true, but as I said TS did price regulation in the past and if I remember correctly Matt Wisdom words - it was a disaster.
I'm all in to explore the concept though.
If you think it's easy, let's discuss, we may get somewhere.
Imagine you are CGT CEO:
You have millions of models on the site, each one with different complexity and quality, 500 new ones are added daily.
How do you proceed in implementing price regulations?
Recommend designers to compare their models with others that are similar and establish the price based on that comparison. The problem is how to encourage people to do that.
You mean designers with similar models should negotiate some kind of average price for their models and put the same number for both? I can't see how this will work - there will always be someone angry in the end.
trimitek, It will not work this way, but a recommended price-graduation to a 3d content by its type, jointly with some kind of restrictions and benefits in accordance to it would be useful to all of us I think.
It will be useful, yeah, the problem is there can be a huge difference between models of the same type - for example - 'car' category - you can have $5 single color cartoonish car and $1000 laser scanned, retopoed, UVW mapped, fully rigged, animated car. An expert have to analyze every single model individually to put some kind of "correct" price recommendation and in the end somehow convince the seller that this IS the"right" price. I had tried that in the forum - no kind of arguments can convince some people that their models worth more - they are afraid nobody will buy it at higher price and are even afraid to try that out.
I said about a gradation (from-to) in each category and type, and it's mean that the artist will choice the price within by himself.
Also I said about restriction and benefits this artist get accordingly the price he'd choose. It'd easily make this artist, to be "afraid" less when he'd get a kind of restrictions or even fines.
It is just one of many solutions that may be used, but once again, there is no way to make the situation better for all of us when everyone can do everything they want.
Alright, lets try some practical examples to explore this. For a start - What kind of price range you will put for a 'car' ?
At first, a car is a too vague concept. However even an abstract car may be divided onto more of less specific types by its era etc.
The second one, please understand that it is no metter what the price you, I or someone else dream or wish or would like to put. The point is to find the price which would be giving the best profit. The profit is the reason why we sell models and to make an adequate estimation of a "from-to" must be used a large-scale statistic data. I do not have any.
Ok, so your concept is that CGT staff should examine and evaluates each model, divide it in subcategories, determine the price that will make the best profit for you and (for example) lower your royalty percent if you set it lower and increase it if you set it higher. Is that correct?
You've got me right, I mean so.
But I must make a little correction to your conclusion: the best profit not for me but for all of us. They, CGT, would automatically get the best profit as well. Didn't you think so?
To be at the top, the initial reason of this topic was started, gives a great opportunity to influence on the industry, to make it better by acting in a role of a kind of regulator, instead of just a cashier.
Yeah, sounds great. The problem I see is CGT should hire an army of experts to evaluate more than 1 million models and keep half of it to constantly evaluate the new ~500 models added daily too. They will also have to monitor all models on all competitors sites and actively readjust the optimal price based on competition, quality and demand (all artists will also have to constantly check if they didn't fall out of the ideal range and readjust their price). All those experts will need salaries and to pay them, CGT will most likely have to make our royalties ~ 10-20%, which will kill the profit for us and nobody will upload models here.
If I understand this correctly. For example, my model that I personaly made have to be compared with a stolen model of the same type and prices of those two models should be adjusted so they are profitable ?How is that fair ?
@trimitek Perhaps designers would publish their models in the forum, as it's been done, and the community would give their opinion. Those who to specialize in cars would give advice on cars, for example.
@Brykmann I don't know.. 500 posts per day.. I'm not sure someone will have the time and motivation to go through all that, just to give an opinion, which will most likely be ignored... and there is 1,110,000 more waiting for opinions
Brykmann, It won't work, I think. As to me, as I said it before, there is no matter what the price someone wish to put to a model. It has no connection with the profit. There is no reason to put might be some fair price as at the first sight if no one will by this model. The reason is to put the most profitable one, and to do that have to be used a serious statistic instead of wishes of anyone or community entirely.
Going through all the models is probably impossible, indeed. Maybe making the forum more intuitive and ''ergonomic'' would ease the process. Fixing that issue with the previews that don't show after you upload, for example.
I'm just throwing ideas ;)
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I have what to say about TS, and how it works, but I'd prefer to leave it untouched. All the solution they have implemented it is a way to all to end up as TS will do.
Next, I think there already is a CEO who gets his salary to think about it. I don't sure whose field of thinking is it though. CEO or someone else.
Only one I am willing to say that there is nothing is possible in the situation as it is at this moment here: anyone can do everything they want.
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It is true that the way things are, everything is quite anarchic, but CGT has done its part.
A huge part of the problem comes from the technological possibilities, anyone can take someone's model and sell it somewhere more or less recommended.
This can result in a significant loss, then there are the newbies, they lack security and confidence in themselves and in their work, so they lower prices without realizing that nobody benefits, not even themselves.
As has been said, only a kind of union that brings together artists will be able to exert some kind of pressure, this organization would be a valid interlocutor.
But I would not forget that CGT is already a company that relies more on creators than clients, the philosophy at its birth, is precisely to grant more power to artists, and work from those needs, I think they have indicated the route and it is our task to navigate to the destination.
''But I would not forget that CGT is already a company that relies more on creators than clients'' - right you are ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dknDYkk-ZDQ
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Hey guys, there is a person who is asking why he sees a lot of negative votes for his 2-dollars-price models.
https://www.cgtrader.com/forum/selling-buying-3d-models/selling-very-cheap-models-2-00-each
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I think that any price control from market site is not realistic and couldn't never work.
Look like "low poly" badget is not working properly - you can see some high-poly models marked as "low-poly". Can you imagine that some stuff would evaluate 500 models daily on professional basis? Or could you imagine some automated process? Non-sense.
1 thing which I admitt that TS does well is that price is important sorting criterium. So fraudulently priced items (from thieves or amateurs) are listed on last pages of market catalogue.
This is in my opinion good tool how to "force" artists to price their models adequately.
When 2$ items are placed on last pages of best much search result.
Otherwise I also congratulate CGT for getting stronger position.
0
zabotlama, it seems that you contradict to yourself. You started with saying that it is non-sense to evaluate 500 models daylily, but below you stated that it is possible (obviously by someone) to evaluate fraudulently priced items to put them on the last pages. at the first.
The second one, to "force" artists to price their models adequately, means that such state of things (applying restrictions) has to be public information. Otherwise it'd work only to increasing of profit of the mentioned marketplace and stimulation of their "right" artist.
Why then there is so many of artists still down their prices in trying to increase their income?
Also, If it would be the public information then obviously buyers would start their searching from the end of the list.
I was speaking about sorting algorithm - the secret mathematical formula how models are listed in search result according to input parameters like artists reputation, model formats etc.
When price will get higher priority and more expensive models will get better positions then the undervaluated ones will be placed on last pages automatically. Lets say that average price of high detailed car is for example 100$ then 5$ model will be not so visible and such artist will maybe lost motivation to upload such models.
But I know that it is also not so easy as I am writing but it is only some basic idea.
That's a good idea, yeah. But I hope you do understand that this "secret mathematical formula", you said about, won't help anyway to "force" artists to price their models adequately. Obviously because it is secret :)
The discussion we take here is exactly about how to "force" artists to price their models adequately, instead of technically get them out of the market, since when on the one marketplace it is maybe OK, but on the other one the quantity of the artists with completely inadequate prices is too high and it seems to be not regulating any means.
6
If there were no CGT, TS would be the only option.
And it is a world in which I would not like to live, I feel a kind of rejection towards commercial practices that ignore the role of artists.
Because art has always been the main engine of the economy, giving up that role makes our work depreciate, we cannot expect some business sharks to understand this, mainly because we ourselves do not understand the value of our work.
It is the creation of works of art that gave rise to hundreds of trades and crafts over the centuries, building a cathedral gave work to all kinds of artisans, who often came from other places, and could be established because a cathedral could take two centuries to be finished.
Ideas such as "the sphinx" served as the engine for the creation of all kinds of works in stone, wood and metal.
We have to take back our place.
Well said!
0
About the fuss around low prices,
It never hurts to inform inexperienced sellers that low pricing is not always the best strategy to optimize income. You can tell them every product has a given set of buyers and very low or a higher price does not make much difference to that number, best to find the sweet spot and gain most from your work. There is no point in providing a 2 dollar commercial license to someone who would have payed 50 dollars with no hesitation, etc. etc.
However, imposing price regulations is probably not the best way forward. In the end, market regulates itself (its demand and supply that regulates price). If supply surpasses demand (and that's whats happening here in the over saturated category's) then prices fall. Also, the effects of fraudsters is a separate problem that needs separate solutions, price regulations is not going to have any effect on those anyways (on contrary, they actually gonna do better because low price alarm is gone).
If CGtrader impose price regulations or ban free models or whatever, then markets outside it would get the people that look for those types of items (no point in diverting traffic away from here).
What could be done is mathematically measure the relation between price changes and sales conversions, but isn't that what CGt already is doing with its discount system? As far as I know CGt implemented that to selectively put discount on models and measure the performance difference? Eventually motivate the sellers to adjust upward or downward?
Maybe it would have more effect showing the results of such measurements to the seller in form of a price recommendation (not force it upon them). The problem is, what are you going to do when the measurement results recommends you to lower your price? (that's what gonna happen when your in heavy saturated category). At some point in there the results of the measurements would make no sense because most of the models in there would have hit rock bottom because of its oversupply. The only one that gets the sales in there would be the one that trows a 100 of those types of models in a single bin and sell it for 10 dollars.
Remember, CGtrader was the first to provide artists with in depth analytics about the market (the demand and supply in it) to help get insight on where to find next value.
Just know that whatever you do, your stuff will devalue in time.
I agree on all points. Just want to add that the current Analytics data is heavily influenced by all of the extremely low price sales that thieves made over the years. It will be great if CGT has the ability to exclude the data gathered from accounts that are already banned.
In general you have a point. But It is not a market to be able to be self-regulated and to be compared with. It is different. I can't imagine that in the typical market we would see the same item in general but with such dramatically different prices. $100 vs. $2. It's ridiculous. I can't even imagine a robber that would be selling a stolen gadget with such difference.
@HQ3DStudio, You can’t compare real world physical objects/goods with digital goods (in this case a license), its a different market. There is a set of time you spend to create a 3D model but ones you sold X amount of license to it and get brake even you can basically go as low as selling license for a dollar and still make extra money. In contrast, real world objects always have a cost to produce because you need physical materials, energy and a factory to produce them, a digital is just a copy. So for example, if one would be the first to model a replica of a 3D car, one would assure to get break even fast because as soon someone ells produces the same design/3D model, one can keep dropping price as necessary to get the sales. If you produce “own” unique designs this issue would be less of a problem unless its houses, furniture, plants and trees, etc. So in a nutshell, extreme low price on license can mean its fraudsters or model was made long time ago and creator is break-even but now faces over saturated supply and just makes some extra dollars on his offer (geo location of creator probably also has some effect).
iterateCGI, Ok, i'll try to come differently. If you need a model you have just 2 option: buy it or model it by yourself. It means that in any case if this model will be even, let's say 20-30% cheaper they would prefer to buy it instead of to do it. There is no magic. Is just the elementary math and a bit of logic.
Well, what we have now. With help of just one silly 3d artists who low their prices even twicely to get a buyer rapidly make another 3d artist also decrease his prices to better his fallen sales. The both will decrease their prices sequently until they both will reach the bottom.
Now about geolocation. I never believe that a person who make $100 per month would refuse opportunity to get $1000. He continue work for $100 just because do not know that it can be different. Well, someone can say that he may be afraid but this fear caused by simple ignorance. Change this situation may only who have instruments to influence on the masses to educate them. But they all do nothing.
@HQ3DStudio, I see what you mean but as I said, the ones that are already break-even can basically go as low as 1dollar if it gets to overcrowded. You say, why would someone in low income location take 100 when he can take 1000? If category is saturated and the battle to the bottom goo's on in there they can go lower, 100 is probably still fine for them. To the question that some seem to have no competition and provide excellent content at very low price, I have no answer, maybe they want it to be accessible for people of own country? The thing is, lots of artists keep making the same stuff that is already there, that isn't smart is it? Also consider the following argument against price regulations. Buyer sentiment is driven by price for one and exclusivity for the other (especially in art and design sector), the spectrum needs to be there to make the contrast for both. Anyways, I don’t see the problem and don't fully understand why it should be? The internet probably has 95% free content but jet the 5% that cost something still sells. I can basically download all films and TV series for free jet I don't and pay for a Netflix subscription because it has value for me (and 195 million others feel same).
If you're not in the squidguild, TS gives you a miserable royalty rate which is pretty much theft.
A company that despises its own employees (which is sort of what we are) doesn't have much of a future.
Please, be more precise. "..more sell" as quantity of deals or money which came to credit card?
@Brykmann ... yes you are right they are giving just 53% royalty that's why i have just some expensive model there to sell , anyways i meet you yesterday on facebook. i just seen your post on group and asked about CGT. now i see your post here and recognize you. how small world is ? is n't it ? how few artists are struglling to earn good money here.
@uzairali Are you sure you are getting 53% royalty from TS? Maybe you meant 35%?
2
@uzairali as long as your on both sites its very hard to make sense of the data, you might think Ts makes more sales but large part of it is swinging own clients one or other direction. Just know there are no extra Ts customers, everyone has at least two accounts and buy where they happen to be logged in. I did the test long time ago and all my sales went up here, didn't lose any clients and earn way more now. Also gained better ranking because having all the sales here. Competing against own profiles in contrast to sellers that rank-up/focus on one profile gives you disadvantage, especially when other palace is that expensive. Also think about your Google ranking, you simply lose allot of money, at least I did for sure. Not to mention the platforms themselves fighting to get the sale and put downward pressure on prices for everyone living on both of them.
@iterateCGI thankyou for counciling . should i give up on TS ? but i notice some of my TS model just show on first page of google also some of CG model. so if i give up its mean my TS model will be vanish from google first page. thats why i belive to upload model on both sides,
anyways how can i check my google ranking ?
That's totally up to you but maybe these questions could help make the decision more easy. Where do you want people to buy your models? If you provide two or more links in Google, which one would you like people to take? How could you facilitate they take one or the other (my answer would be remove on or the other). Do you believe there are Ts clients that do not look somewhere ells? How much sales do you think would be lost on those should you close the account? For me it was around 5% at closing Ts account and 0% after few weeks, all sales went to my CGt account. About the Google ranking, you can check it trying matching keywords on your products and see where your images end up if you look in Google images. There are plenty of people that use Google images to find links to what they need. Here are some tips on how to improve image ranking (https://diggitymarketing.com/how-to-rank-in-google-images-in-5-steps/)
Most of the tips they are mentioning are applied to my images, try for example search terms “alien plant game model”, or just “alien plant”, you gonna see my image instantly. I have them on multiple sites and all linked to my CGt, that also helps the Google ranking. The images need matching names, appear on multiple sites, get views/interactions and have back links to the site/link you want to appear on top.
3
Few months later the trend continues and CGT is gaining lead:
https://www.similarweb.com/website/turbosquid.com?competitors=cgtrader.com
I hope it will accelerate site development.
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